Episode 47 - Master Ken & Mr. Matt Page
Master Ken & Mr. Matt Page - Episode 47
They beat the crap out of him, you know? Took his belt away. Foot stomped him, put cigarettes out on him. Threw him in the dumpster. And so I felt responsible, you know? Because I had given him the confidence too early. So I went to see him in the hospital, and I saw him laying there all beat up and broken. And that's when I demoted him.
Master Ken
Today we have a very different episode of Martial Arts Radio. Episode 47 marks our first interview of a fictional character, Master Ken, the beloved start of the breakout YouTube hit, Enter the Dojo. Our first portion of the episode is with the legendary founder of Ameri-Do-Te himself. Later, we're joined by Matt Page, the actor behind the character.If you're not familiar with the show, it's a biting, sarcastic and sometimes all-to-true portrayal of the traditional martial arts. If you're willing to laugh at the martial arts, and maybe a bit at yourself, you'll enjoy it. With over 150 thousand subscribers, Enter the Dojo may be one of the most successful martial arts-related independent productions of all time.There are some surprises in this episode that I hope you'll enjoy. While I rarely spend much time with a guest before their appearance, there's usually a bit of pre-show. Master Ken, Mr. Page & I spent very little time in the pre-show, electing to just sort of let it happen. That was the right call, and I have to say, this episode was a blast. Enjoy. ~jeremy
Enjoyed this episode? Why not check out the book, Restomp the Interviews
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Show Notes
Matt Page
Actor - Jean-Claude Van DammeMovies - Double Impact (Bolo Yeung Fight Scene), Bloodsport (Final Fight Scene)Enter The Dojo Show website and on YouTube and TwitterMaster Ken on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter or Schedule a Live Appearance Ameri-Do-Te on Facebook Matt Page on IMDb If you've never watched the Enter the Dojo show, the video below is not a full episode, but a wonderful introduction to the creativity and sense of humor it brings.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below or download here.
Hello there, everyone. It’s episode 47 of whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, the only place to hear the best stories from the best martial artists, like today’s guest, Master Ken.I’m the founder here at whistlekick, but here on the show, I’m your host, Jeremy Lesniak. whistlekick, in case you didn't know, makes the world’s best sparring gear and some great apparel and accessories, all of it for traditional martial artists. I’d like to welcome our new listeners, and thank all of you returning fans. If you're not familiar with our products, you should check out everything we offer, like our amazing sweatpants, now available in black. These are probably the most comfortable sweatpants you’ll ever wear. We've had people buying second pairs just so they can take one off to wash them. You can learn more about our sweatpants and all of our other gear and apparel at whistlekick.com. All of our past show notes, episodes, over at whistlekickMartialArtsRadio.com. While you're on the website, why don't you sign up for the newsletter? We offer exclusive content to subscribers, and it’s the only place to find out about upcoming guests. Now, let’s move on to the episode.On episode 47, we’re joined by Master Ken, the legendary founder of Ameri-Do-Te, and star of the hit show, Enter the Dojo. There's little that I can do to prepare you for this wonderful interview, so I’m just going to step back and let you listen.Master Ken, welcome to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio.
Master Ken:
Thank you for having me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It’s an absolute honor to have you here on the show, and…
Master Ken:
You're right
Jeremy Lesniak:… I'm sure most of our listeners know who you are, as the founder of Ameri-Do-Te, but I'm sure there's a lot more to you than just what we get to see from your videos, so perhaps you could indulge us and tell us how you got started in the martial arts?
Master Ken:
Well, it depends on your definition of when that starts. I mean, technically, I did my first groin grab on the doctor that took me out of the womb. I just remember feeling someone grab my ankle and pull me into this world, and looked up, thought he was threatening, grabbed his groin, and then tried to choke him with the umbilical cord until some other nurses pulled me off of him. So, I've been fighting and doing, you know, martial defense in some form since the day I was born.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow, that's pretty incredible. Certainly, you're starting a lot earlier than most of us. We've had quite a few guests on the show that start at 3, or 4, or 8, or 9, but here you are at seconds old.
Master Ken:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you think that set the path for you into the world, getting started in the martial realm so early?
Master Ken:
Yeah, I think it did. I think that that was why it was necessary for me to get into martial arts, was to contain the power and effectiveness that I obviously already had. And, so, you know, then it went to studying various martial arts. You know, Ameri-Do-Te is the best of all and the worst of none. We take the best parts of every other martial art in the world with none of the weaknesses, and so, obviously, I had to study those other things. That's what people don't get.You know, they don't understand why I think every other style is bull ****. It’s because I've studied it. I have taken Shotokan. I have taken Kenpo. I have taken Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. It just took me less and less time with each style to figure out that it was a bunch of crap. Shotokan, I made it to orange belt before I realized that was bull ****. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, got to about a purple belt before I realized that was a joke. Got tired of rolling around on the ground with people. You know, I mean, there's more inappropriate touching in one class of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu than there is at a slumber party at Bill Cosby’s house, and I got tired of all that. There was the … The only style I didn't really official get a rank in is Kung Fu. I could tell that was bull **** from the parking lot, so I just drove up, I saw the sign, and then I drove away.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, your meter for detecting BS must be pretty good. How would you say you've been able to do that?
Master Ken:
Well, you know, it’s comparing martial arts training with real-life situations. You know, being out in the street. I've worked as a conflict resoluter for various establishments. Bars, you know. I've been what other people call a bouncer. I've worked security jobs. You know, I've been an exotic dancer, so I understand what it’s like to be in violent environments, where people are slapping and pulling at you, and what you got to do to really get away, versus what all these people teach you, which is a bunch of unrealistic scenarios.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, sure. Sure, and certainly you've had the opportunity to cobble all of those together and create the world’s … How is it you referred to it? The most effective? The most deadly?
Master Ken:
Yeah, it’s the most dangerous.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Most dangerous, sorry.
Master Ke:
It’s the most dangerous martial art in the world, because it’s not a sport. A lot of other styles, in order to teach them, you got to turn them into sports, but this is not a sport. This is street lethal martial arts. Virtually every move that we have in Ameri-Do-Te can lead to death and/or dismemberment.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's impressive
Master Ken:
It’s in the release. That's why we have to have a release form for everybody who signs in, that if they do get death or dismembered, that they knew that coming in.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Are you willing to share with us how frequently that happens?
Master Ken:
I'm not at liberty to say. I had to sign a thing. I have a couple of lawyers that keep me from discussing such things.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Fair enough, and that's exactly what I would have expected. Now, of course, that's a great origin story. You took it back farther than anyone that’s ever been on the show, and honestly, as the host, that's exactly what I would have expected from you, so thank you for honoring us with that. But, here on Martial Arts Radio, we’re all about stories, and I'm sure you have a thousand stories that would put our other guests to shame, but I'd like you to pick one and tell us your best martial arts story.
Master Ken:
Oh, gosh. There's so many. Best martial arts story. Let’s see. I remember the first time that I ever … I’ll tell you what. I remember the first time that I ever advanced a student who wasn't ready. You know?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Master Ken:
A lot of that happens in the martial arts world. You know, there's selling belts, selling rank, all the time.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.:
Master Ken:
A student came in, he was testing for purple belt or something, and, you know, he didn't know his stuff. He didn't know his stuff, but he was close. Only screwed up on a couple of things. His mother was very insistent that I pass him, so I did, and next day, he wears his purple belt to school, showing it off to everybody. Ends up walking up next to a couple of homeless guys, meth-heads it turned out, and they beat the crap out of him, you know? Took his belt away, and just foot stomped him, put cigarettes out on him, threw him in the dumpster, and so I felt responsible, because I had given him the confidence too early. So, I went to see him in the hospital, and I saw him laying there, all beat up and broken, and that's when I demoted him.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Really?
Master Ken:
Yeah. I took him back down to orange belt, to teach him a lesson, so that he understood the value of the rank. And you know, a year later, once he got done with the physical therapy and the surgery and everything, he came back, you know, and he worked really hard, and he tested again for that purple belt.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And how did it go that time?
Master Ken:
Oh, he failed.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Really?
Master Ken;
Yeah. He couldn't do the moves.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Better or worse than the first time?
Master Ken:
Oh, way worse, because the guys who had stomped him, his arms were all misshapen, and his fingers didn’t work anymore, but he put a lot of effort in. He put a lot of effort in. Actually, he still currently works for me in the dojo. He’s the janitor, so I still let him mop the floors and whatnot. He’s just not allowed to train so he doesn't embarrass me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. That's very noble of you. Quite the honor, I'm sure, for him.
Master Ken:
Yeah, well, it should be.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I think this is a good time for us to transition out for, of course, any of our listeners that may not be familiar with Master Ken and the Enter the Dojo show, you were probably listening to that first portion of the episode wondering what was actually going on, but now I'd like to welcome Mr. Matt Page to the show.
Matt Page:
How you doing?
Jeremy Lesniak:
The … I'm doing great, sir. How are you?
Matt Page:
I'm doing great.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That was a lot of fun, and something I've been looking forward to from a while ago when we started talking about doing this.
Matt Page:
Yeah. I'm glad we finally have been able to line up the schedules. This is great.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Yeah, that was a good time, and of course I had to mute my microphone so I wasn’t laughing over your story, but you do a fantastic job, of course, on the spot and holding in character. Is that the hardest part of your job?
Matt Page:
You know, let’s see, I would say it depends on the situation. When I'm doing stuff live, it’s easier, actually, when I'm improvising or doing stuff live. It’s when we shoot the show, the Enter the Dojo YouTube show, that I have a hard time, partially because the other actors, whether it’s Joe Conway, who plays Todd Woodland, my assistant, he’ll say or do some stuff sometimes that cracks me up, or when we film a season of the show, the other actors just kill me. They're so funny, and so that's the time when I have the hardest time staying in character.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Must be a lot of fun even those moments when you've got … Somebody breaks …
Matt Page:
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
… And you've got to re-shoot. I mean, just the environment there, I'm sure, must be a lot of fun for everyone.
Matt Page:
Oh, yeah, and that's what works about the show. I mean, the fact that we do all find a lot of the same things funny is what works about the show. If we’re not cracking each other up, then we know something’s wrong. Whenever we shoot, and we shoot the seasons very, very fast over just a few days, but whenever we do it, it’s just laughing all day. It’s great.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's better in your job than that, certainly?
Matt Page:
Oh, yeah. It’s awesome.
Jeremy Lesnia:
Great. So, for anyone that has watched the show, they’ve got quite a good idea of what you find funny, but have probably very little idea of who you are as the actor behind Master Ken, so I’d like to take it back and re-ask you those first two questions. How did you get started in the martial arts?
Matt Page:
You know, I was a pretty undisciplined teenager, and acting out a bit, got in trouble in the school here and there, just being a pain, had a smart mouth, and sooner or later, my smart mouth got me in trouble. I got into a couple of fights, lost those fights very badly, because I had no … I had never been in a fight, you know? And so, I told my mother I had wanted to take boxing. I knew there was a boxing gym in Lewiston, about 20 minutes from Turner where I grew up. She said she couldn't find it. Now that I look back on it, I think that she didn’t want me to box. I think that she was worried that I would get my head beat in, so she found a martial arts school. It was a traditional Okinawan Kenpo school.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You just mentioned two towns that I'm kind of … Are you from Maine, sir?
Matt Page:
I am.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm from Casco.
Matt Page:
No kidding?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Matt Page:
That's awesome. I didn’t even know that. That's wild. Yeah, I grew up in Turner, Maine, but, you know, outside of Lewiston-Auburn, and...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Matt Page:
… I trained … My very first instructor was a gentleman named Rick Pelletier with Pelletier’s Karate-Do in Green. He only started in Lewiston, and then he built a school in Green, Maine, which is still there today.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sensei Pelletier was one of my favorites to watch as a teenager growing up on the tournament circuit.:
Matt Page:
Oh, that's so awesome. That's great. That's so funny. That is so funny.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Yeah. He’s passed away now. I'm not sure if you know that?
Matt Page:
Yeah, oh, I do know that. Yeah, I was very, very sad to hear about that, and I'm still in contact with some of the students who took over. Yeah, we were all really sad about that because he was such a wonderful instructor, a wonderful man, and really, I credit him with setting the foundation and setting a very high standard for martial arts against which I would compare and continue to compare any of my experiences in martial arts. He set such a high standard for respect, for traditionalism, for just doing good karate, good martial arts, you know? Focusing on the basics, and the fundamentals, and the integrity of it all. It was … He set the bar really high.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Yeah, without a doubt, and all of his students were always very good, so I'm sure…
Matt Page:
Oh, yeah, they…
Jeremy Lesniak:
… You came away with that as well.
Matt Page:
Yeah, yeah. I actually, for a few years, was dating Sadie Holme, who was one of his prize students, who … She had just … I think I remember, in their house, they had to start putting her trophies in boxes because they couldn't find any more room for all the trophies she would go out and win. Her and Ferdie and all those guys would go out and just … And they really loved performing at tournaments. They did a great job, but at the same time, they were also very, very focused on what made a traditional karate school traditional, in terms of being connected to the lineage, you know, because they only had three degrees of separation. There was Sensei Pelletier, and then Marcus DeValentino, and then Sensei Odo in Okinawa, and so there was always a very direct lineage to the origin of the art, and they were always very, very strict on terminology, on etiquette, and that was stuff I took with me and something I really needed as a teenager. I actually really needed that, because I think that I was … I think I could have gone down a different path if that hadn't become part of my life.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely. Absolutely, and, you know, it’s funny. Sadie is a name that I haven't heard in quite a few years, but she and I came up through the tournament circuit together, so it would not surprise me if you and I were in same place at the same time.
Matt Page:
That is blowing my…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Years ago, yeah
.Matt Page:
That blows my mind.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. At some point, off-air, we’ll have to compare notes.
Matt Page:
Yeah, we should.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I bet there's quite a few people that we know in common.
Matt Page:
That's great
Jeremy Lesniak:
See? I told you. The stories bring out the best stuff on this show.
Matt Page:
That is true. Who would have thought? Like, I really … To people listening, we didn't plan this.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Not a bit. You said Lewiston, my ears perked up, and then you said Turner, and I said, “Nah, wait a second.” So, there's a fun story. We got a great story from Master Ken, and thank God I would never have to train under him and be demoted, but I’d love to hear a story from you.
Matt Page:
Yeah, you know, since we’re on that topic of what my initial experiences were, the story that I have told here and there, and maybe I can … I have told this story before, so maybe I can think of another one, but one of the things that's most relevant to the show is some of my first experiences leaving the dojo, because I only knew a traditional Okinawan school. Then I moved to California to try to be in the entertainment business and figured I would just find a dojo. And so I went to one in Orange County that had a name … It wasn't a style I had ever heard of because it was one of those ones that the instructor basically kind of just made up from their own experiences and then, you know, made up a style.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Matt Page:
And they really did have something that we spoofed on the show called groin sparring, where they said they genuinely, with no sense of irony, said that the only target that mattered in a street fight was the groin, and so that was the only target they were interested in. They weren't encouraging you to kick and punch unless it was just a fake so that you could go for the groin. And then they, honest to God, my first fight, they made me fight a woman, and I remember thinking, “Well, this doesn't really seem that fair,” you know? Like, A) why would I be fighting her, B) she's, like, the only person in the room who doesn't have the target that I'm supposed to go for.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Matt Page:
And it was so bizarre, and they did a bunch of things. They made me stand on a balance beam. They had a little … Just, like, a foot off the ground, but they made me stand on a balance beam and read from some martial arts book. It was Zen in the Martial Arts, or it was Tao of Jeet Kune Do, something like that. I had to stand there and balance on a balance beam and read that book, while the whole class sat around and watched me. I was like, “I'm sure there's a lesson here, but I don't really get what it is.” It was such a bizarre experience.That was where the very, very beginning … This was a long time ago. This was like 15 years before I came up with the official idea for the show, but I went around to these other dojos over the years, and every time I ended up in a very Americanized school, a franchised school, what a lot of people call McDojos, that I didn't even know existed, I would have these bizarre experiences and just file them away in my mind, thinking, “Someday I'm going to do something about this. Someday I'm going to do a story that references this in some way.”
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow. That's fantastic. My mind’s blown that Ameri-Do-Te actually has some real roots in life.
Matt Page:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That there's a school now…
Matt Page:
That's the thing, some of the weirder stuff we do on the show is totally from real life, either something that I have personally experienced, or something that other people have told me a story of a real life experience, and I've been like, “That's going in the show. That's got to be …” And it makes sense, too, when you think about it, because unlike a lot of other professions, there isn't really a lot of standardization in the world of martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Matt Page:
You can get training anywhere, or even not be trained and put on a black belt, and say that you’re a karate master, and you can open up a school, and there's really not a lot of ways to limit, or challenge, or test that, and so there's all these bizarre versions of schools out there that people study and think, “Oh, well, this is martial arts. This must be what it is.” So it leads to all these incredible experiences that people can totally relate to.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Can I put you on the spot for another great example like that…
Matt Page:
Sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
… That came into the show? Sure.
Matt Page:
Let’s see. Let’s see. What am I thinking? Let me think about another one. Trying to think of one I haven't told before. Well, there's the … The invention of the Kill Face, that came from a real pep talk, and this is the other thing that I tell people, you know, when I tell these stories, is that, like, some of these really bizarre stories come from people who are martial artists that I genuinely respect. It’s just the longer you're in this world, the better … The more sense there is of … There are ironic and bizarre things that happen even if you run a good school, even if you're, like, you know, the real thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Matt Page:
So anyway, this guy that I know was telling you that your face was the most important part of a fight because it was about your attitude. He was talking about the way your opponent perceives you, and he said, “You got to get you a face.” He said, “Get you a face, that when you put on that face, people don't want to fight you anymore. That like, you make this face that's so scary that you psych them out before you even end up in the fight.”And I totally … And it’s a legitimate thing, like, I mean, I could see that. This guy in particular, his name is Kevin Bankens. He's a good friend of mine, and he’s trained me before in Jiu-jitsu and Kickboxing, and he’s a great martial artist, but when he told me that and he gave me that face, I got a little scared. He’s a scary dude, but I thought, “What if it went one step further, and the face itself was like a lethal weapon?” And so that was where the idea for the Kill Face came about, the idea that there was just a face you could make that could kill somebody without even getting in a fight. That's the kind of stuff that we came up with.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Fantastic. Yeah, and you know, you bring up a good point that for a lot of us, you know, who've been in the martial arts for a long time that we sometimes have a hard time stepping out of it and realizing that a lot of what we do, even the effective, legitimate stuff, is kind of silly at times.
Matt Page:
Yeah, and we don't mean for it to be, but the trickiness of it again, you know, it’s stuff that A) is not standardized, like most martial arts don't have a lot of … Like in the Kenpo world. I spent most of my life in the Kenpo world, and in the Kenpo world, there's a lot of discussion going on right now that in American Kenpo, there are an insane number of 10th degree black belts. There's like hundreds of them all over the world, and some of the lineages are unclear, and they're very young 10th degree black belts. They're not like in their 60s and 70s. Some of them are in their late 30s and they're already a 10th degree, and it’s, again, because of a lack of standardization.But even just trying to do this, do martial arts as a sport, or trying to make it more realistic for the street, which is also a really funny conversation to have because there's so many problems with that, yeah, you end up doing these bizarre things that are unintentionally funny, so we just keep … Every time we do a season we think, “Okay, that's probably … We’re probably out of ideas now,” and then I’ll go train, and I’ll meet some other martial artist, or I’ll go to a seminar, and be like, “Nope, there's so much more material. There's so many things we haven't even touched on yet.”
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you ever find yourself seeking out sources of material in … Let me ask a different way. Do you ever find yourself going to train with people that you are pretty sure will give you ridiculous things?
Matt Page:
Yeah, and I feel a little guilty about that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Matt Page:
I do, though … Because I do like legitimately training, but then there are other times where I’ll go to a seminar and think, “This is going to be good. There's going to be something here that is going to be wild that I’m totally going to be able to use.” And the people who know me and know the show, they'll say something accidentally ridiculous, and then they'll look over at me, and they'll be like, “Don't use that. Don't do that.” And I’m like, “I can’t help it. You know the deal. If I’m in the room and you say something wild, it may end up on the show.”
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're possibly the first hipster martial artist, training ironically at times.
Matt Page:
Yeah. Well, and that's another thing that we tend to … That Joe and I tend to talk about a lot is the fact that part of the importance in the season of the character Anthony, who’s the orange belt, is he is really the Matt Page character, like he’s the guy that I’m the most like. I personally am not very much like Master Ken. I’m more the skeptical lower belt who’s kind of watching things and being like, “Why do you say that? That's kind of weird,” or looking at a move and being like, “Well, that wouldn't work.” I’m like that kind of pain-in-the-ass student that is kind of annoying to guys like Master Ken, but that character is so important to the show because he is really … He’s the one that can look into the camera, and he’s looking right at the audience saying, “This is weird. I’m with you. I get what you're …” He’s like one of the only characters on the show that's self-aware, self-aware enough to look at the audience and be like, “No, no. I’m with you guys. This is totally weird.”
Jeremy Lesniak:
Cool. So, one of the things that we talk about on this show is competition, and how that's a threat for a lot of the martial artists that we've talked to. Did you ever spend any time in competition, possibly side-by-side with me?
Matt Page:
Right? You know, very limited. Very limited. I tried a few tournaments, and I think I did okay in kata. I think I usually managed to place somewhere in the top three or four for kata, but I was never … I don't know. I think that my motivation for so long with the martial arts was always that I was fascinated with martial arts movies, so I just wanted to learn how to do the stuff I saw in the movies, and everything else was kind of secondary. You know, that and I wanted, you know, after being beat up a few times in high school, I didn't want that to happen anymore, so I was like, “Well, I at least want to know the basics of how to defend myself.” But outside of that, it was more about how can I do what I see Jean Claude Van Damme, and Steven Seagal, and Jeff Speakman, and those guys, how can I move like them? I want to move like those guys. So that was my … And then when the UFC came out, it became, how can I do what I see Royce Gracie doing? That always sort of motivated my relationship with it, and very seldom did that lead me to tournaments. It just was never my thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're not the first person to say that. You know, it certainly takes a certain approach to the martial arts to find competition enjoyable.
Matt Page:
Yeah, I have immense respect for people who measure themselves that way constantly. You know, I think that that's one of the best ways, because it puts you under a lot of pressure. You know, it’s scary to have people watching you, it’s scary to test yourself, whether it’s being on the floor doing a form, or whether it’s going out and fighting in competition, to test yourself against somebody you don't know. I have immense respect for people who do that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, I do have to say that I find it a little ironic that here, you weren't gravitating towards being out in front of everyone performing, which is how some people look at a competition, and then you pursued a career in entertainment, and ultimately, you are performing in front of a much bigger audience.
Matt Page:
Right. I guess I always felt more comfortable performing as a character. You know, like if I’m playing somebody else, then I get a lot of satisfaction out of it. If I’m in a play, or if I’m pretending to be … You know, up being Master Ken, or acting in a film or a television show, then I feel like I can sort of separate myself and say, “Well, this is something different. This isn't me.” Also, quite honestly, I think I’m … From my experience, I am an incredibly average martial artist, like perhaps even a little below average, and yet I was always drawn to the arts and always getting a really great response to my writing, my sketching, my acting. As an artist, I always got a lot of positive feedback. As a martial artist, particularly when I would spar and kind of get beat around, like, I could survive, but I was never an exceptional martial artist, so I think that I kind of just gravitated towards what it seemed I had some talent for.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's a pretty profound statement. I mean, we don't have a lot of people in our world that are that aware of their skill, and that open with their own self assessment. I mean, would you be willing to talk about that for a minute?
Matt Page:
Yeah. Yeah. No, sure. I just, you know, I really … I feel like it’s easy to fantasize for quite a long time about being good at martial arts in a competitive situation, and also in “the street,” you know, like some scenario where you execute all the perfect moves, and protect your loved ones, and knock some bad guys down, or whatever that is, which I think just about anybody who studied martial arts has that fantasy in their mind, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Matt Page:
But then, the longer you live life, and the longer you see how real violence happens, and I became more and more skeptical of that scenario, even just the fact that human beings are a lot more complicated than being the good guy and the bad guy, and that real violence is very, very sloppy, and very unpredictable.I do think it is good to have some basic training so that you're not a victim. I definitely think that training is good, but I also looked at myself in competitive situations, and I would ... Jiu-jitsu was the only thing I was ever decent enough at where I could really survive against somebody who was maybe a little bigger or faster or stronger than me. Striking, I was always kind of a mess. I was never a particularly talented striker. I’m always getting hit a lot and never really figuring out why, and so I think that was why I eventually did gravitate towards the ground fighting stuff, because I thought, “Well, at least I’ll be able to stop them from punching me in the face,” and that was the fascination over the years with arts like that.But yeah, being self-aware like that over time, starting to figure out also where I wanted to put my effort. I found myself putting a ton of time into being a martial artist, and I definitely think that's great, but in my 30s, I had to start to say, “Gosh, it seems like I’m not reaching a lot of my goals,” and I had to look at how I was spending my time, and say, “What do I want to succeed at the most? Do I want martial arts to be a way of life, or does it have to start being a hobby, so that I can succeed in other areas?” You know?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow. For sure, and I think that's an important part of maturity. Of course, through whistlekick, there are 10 million things that I should want to be doing everyday that aren't going to happen, so it’s about prioritization. You've certainly done that, and I'm going to guess that as you did that you saw increased success with the show and with what you're doing with the entertainment side of your life.
Matt Page:
Yeah, I mean, acting and film making has always been my highest … That's been my highest priority, and once I really started to say, “Okay, well, more than anything else, I want to succeed as an actor and as a filmmaker,” that's my number one thing, and then martial arts can be the third thing, but it can't be … I can’t have them all on the same level. Once I started doing that, at the same time, I had the idea of like, “Well, but I have a background in this,” so there's a level of authenticity that when we do episodes of the show, people who study martial arts are like, “Oh, that's a real thing. That's really the way the martial arts world works,” and so it did help. It did help that I had a background in it, and it does help that Joe Conway owns a working dojo where we film, and that he and I do train, and that he teaches every day, and that we’re still connected to that world. It’s just that … To answer your question, yes, I absolutely saw a dramatically increase over a few years once I was really focused on entertaining people with martial arts from a comical point-of-view. That clicked. I don't think that me being a straight-up … If I had tried to approach it as me being a straight-up action star like Steven Seagal or Jean Claude Van Damme, I don't think any of that would have worked. I think it was always going to have to be a comedy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Fair enough, and it’s not my acronym, but I’ll share it with you and with the listeners. I really like this. FOCUS: Follow One Course Until Successful.
Matt Page:
Absolutely. That's a great … That holds more and more true. I'm actually typing that down now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh. Good. Good. Don't give me credit for it. I didn't come up with it. Just, I heard it on another podcast.
Matt Page:
Yeah, no, but it’s very true. It’s very true, and it’s something that I think that … In my 20s, I wanted to succeed at absolutely everything, and I would find that I wasn't really making as much headway as I wanted to in any particular area, and then once I was able to streamline it and say, “Okay, what are the most important things to me that the more I reduce that number of things I'm focused on, the happier I am and the more successful those things are,” and so martial arts is still, you know, it’s still a third. It’s still the third thing, but it had to take a backseat to the creative aspect, because that's my number one focus.:
Jeremy Lesniak:
I know there are quite a few people out there that are … Maybe would be a little sad to hear that that's what it took, but are quite pleased with the results. Selfishly, I can say I certainly am that I get to watch the show, and see Master Ken, and all the wonderful things that you put out that maybe wouldn't have happened.
Matt Page:
Yeah, well, and I love the fact that people do. I am so flattered by the fact that people do really want Ken to be a real guy, like, they want Ken to be 100% real, and that's both troubling and very flattering, because ultimately Ken does still represent, kind of, what is wrong with American martial arts, but because he’s fun to watch, people just want to know what he’s going to say next. Yeah, I do … Again, you know, I mean, the good thing about having that character is that does keep me connected to martial arts every day. You know? I have to be reading about it, I have to be training, I have to be doing things so that I'm still plugged in so that we can come up with content for the show.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. So, you've mentioned a couple actors as we've gone on - Van Damme, Seagal, Jeff Speakman. Is one of those your favorite, or maybe somebody else?
Matt Page:
You know, Jean Claude Van Damme is probably … Well, he is. Jean Claude Van Damme is … I'm a huge fan of his. I grew up on his movies. I grew up on all those guys’ movies, but Van Damme was the guy that I emulated the most. You know, I would be in the basement in front of a mirror trying to kick like him, trying to figure out how to, you know, get the … I got that stretching machine that spread your legs apart. You know what I mean?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Matt Page:
That torture device, you know, because I had to be able to get as close to a split as possible. Yeah, I just was a huge fan. I owned and watched all of his movies. I was also a Steven Seagal fan, of his early stuff. I liked the Perfect Weapon, and was excited when I finally got to meet and train with Jeff Speakman. Yeah, I followed all of that stuff, and it was hugely inspiring to me. I wanted to be able to move like those guys. I wanted to be in movies like those guys, and they sort of … It was weird actually going to film school and not knowing a lot of the film makers that I should have known by then, like Orson Welles and those guys, but I knew every word and every shot and every frame of every Jean Claude Van Damme movie, because I had watched them until the VHS … Remember the VHS tapes would actually start to get so worn that the auto tracking couldn't even fix it anymore?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Matt Page:
You'd get those weird lines all over the tape because you've watched it so many times? I would actually have the tapes cued up to my favorite fights scenes so that if I just wanted to watch just a fight scene before I went to school in the morning, I could just pop in the VHS and it was cued right to that scene. So, I would wear out the middle of the tape by watching the same fight scene like 200 times.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you have a favorite fight scene from one of those movies that we can plug in the show notes?
Matt Page:
You know, let’s see, it depends on the movie. So, for Jean Claude Van Damme, my favorite one, my favorite movie still that I would love … We keep talking about spoofing this with Master Ken, but Double Impact, where he played twins.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I remember that.
Matt Page:
Even though he’s played twins three times. He played twins briefly in Maximum Risk, and then he played them again in the Replicant. I mean, a clone, but a twin in that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right:
Matt Page:
But Double Impact was the best of the twin movies that I think he did, and when he fights Bolo Yeung, you know? I mean, he did a great … The second favorite is the fight in Bloodsport, and it’s still … That's a really, much more elaborate fight, but the way that Sheldon Lettich … I think it was Sheldon Lettich that directed that directed that one. The way that was shot and lit and everything, and all the action, I used to keep that fight specifically cued up, because that one was one of my favorites, but every scene, every one of those movies, I had that cued up, you know? For Hard to Kill, it was when Steven Seagal goes into the convenience store, in like the first 10 minutes of the movie, and those guys come in to rob the place, and he beats them all to death. Which, looking back, it’s like, that's pretty extreme. He really … He’s so brutal in those movies, you know? He’s like kind of a bad guy himself almost in how brutally violent he is in all those movies, but that was what was fun about it.. In Out for Justice, it was the bar scene, you know, when he goes back looking for Richie, and he ends up beating everybody to death with like a cue ball and a handkerchief.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Matt Page:
You know? All those movies, I can think of each one of those movies, I can be like, “Yup, it’s that scene.” Lionheart, it’s the big fight at the end, and I would just keep all those cued and just watch them over and over and over again, just studying how they moved, how they shot it. I was just fascinated with it, and I still really like going back and watching those movies now. It always fills me with so much nostalgia, because it was such a particular time.They don't make action movies like that anymore, because what they used to do, they don't really do this now. They used to cast people based on their martial arts ability, not on their acting ability, and now they put movie stars who may have a little bit of experience or none at all, they train them for a few months, put them in harnesses, and now their super-duper martial artists. A lot of what they do … And it’s great. Some of them do great work, but a lot of it has to do with the editing, and has to do with the special effects and whatnot, whereas before, I mean, Van Damme, he’s there doing that helicopter kick as many takes as they need, and he’s doing it for real, and jumping up and doing a helicopter kick, and just grazing the face of a stunt actor. When Steven Seagal was at his peak was doing Aikido, his Aikido was amazing. People have a lot of debate about his skill level now, but in his prime, he was so fast, and his technique was so great, and then they would just build a whole movie around … It’s like those dancing movies, right? It’s like those movies that feature really great dancers, not great actors, and they're just like, “Okay, we just got to get through this next seven minutes of plot, and then there's another dance number.”
Jeremy Lesniak:
So true.
Matt Page:
It’s the same thing with martial arts movies. It’s like, “Okay, we got to suffer through some pretty bad dialogue, and pretty rough acting, but the cool chase scene is coming up in like seven minutes, so I'm going to go to the kitchen, and I’ll just let the movie run. I’ll go the kitchen, I’ll make myself a sandwich, and by the time I come back it’s time for the chase scene, and that's the scene I really love,” or whatever. You know?So, yeah, all of this, my whole relationship with martial arts, as a martial artist and creating the show, all comes from just being totally inspired by those guys, and really loving that particular, that very odd period where American martial arts action movies were so peculiar, because they don't make those movies anymore.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, and I don't know how well they would do if they were made. I would certainly watch them.
Matt Page:
Yeah, yeah, and that's the thing. You couldn't get away with it, because the thing, the beauty of the 80s and early 90s was the sincerity. You could say really bad dialogue, and you could have bad guys getting killed in certain ways, and you could have the macho relationship with saving the damsel that lead to the love scene and everything with no sense of irony. You could be totally sincere. You could have the really … What's that really bad … You know in Bloodsport when Van Damme is running away from Forest Whitaker and the other guy, because they're trying to take him back before he finishes fighting in the kumite?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Matt Page:
There's that horrible 80s theme song that's really playful, and it doesn't fit the movie at all, and it doesn't make any … You watch it now, and it’s the same thing as the opening credit sequence of Kickboxer that Mark DiSalle did. It’s like the music montage is so homoerotic, and it’s unintentionally hilarious, you know? I actually showed some of my film friends Showdown in Little Tokyo a few years ago, you know, Brandon Lee and Dolph Lundgren. That opening credit sequence, I had forgotten, the opening credit sequence is just like a dude’s arms and chest with tattoos, and it’s supposed to be all ominous because he’s got Yakuza tattoos, but they're watching the opening credit sequence of this dude flexing in the dark. It’s just the shadowy shot of his pecs and his biceps, and they're like, “Um, what are we watching?” I'm like, “No, you don't understand. In the 90s, this was like … This was really tough. This was really cool and manly.” Now, if you made a movie like that, you could not do it sincerely without people laughing at you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But, perhaps Master Ken could? Is there … I mean, I have no idea, and hopefully I'm not spilling the beans on something and putting you on the spot, but is there talk of something longer, more feature-length?
Matt Page:
Yeah, you know, it’s something we would absolutely love to do. It’s something that is … We keep talking about it, and you know, to be honest, it’s actually where some of the seasons come from because we've been flirting with Hollywood for a few years now. I've gone out and done meetings, and pitch meetings, and I've pitched it as a show to Comedy Central. I've pitched it as a movie to Paramount. I've pitched it all over the place, and people really like it, but then they don't really know what to do with it, because it's such an odd type of thing, you know what I mean?Again, it’s spoofing a type of movie they don't make anymore, so I end up writing these pilot scripts and these movies scripts, and then it comes time to do another season of the web series, and I just end up stealing the material that I've written for the movie, or the material that I've written for a pilot, and be like, “Okay, well, let’s just use that for a season.” So, then we shoot it all, and then I have to rewrite it again, and be like, “Okay, I've used all that. Now I got to come up with another version of what Ken’s life is like and what this story is.”But I would love to do a movie. I would really, really love to do a Master Ken movie, and initially we were thinking that it would be about Enter the Dojo, about the show, but I kind of more and more think it would be way more fun to put Master Ken in an 80s action movie, like put him in a Double Impact, twins kind of martial arts thing, like put him in some just … Put him in those scenarios and just see what he does because I think that would be so fun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. I’m almost thinking. You've seen the movie Joe Dirt, with David Spade?
Matt Page:
Yeah, yeah
Jeremy Lesniak:
Like a martial arts Joe Dirt, opening with what Ken told us about his origin story, the trying to choke the doctor out with the umbilical cord. I could totally see a movie starting with that scene.
Matt Page:
Right, no, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I would be hooked.
Matt Page:
Absolutely, and what we joked about, what some of us joked about has been the idea of, that if Ken did an autobiographical film but he insisted in starting in it at every age. He’s playing his six-year-old self, like in totally implausible situations, and like beating up little kids, showing how tough he was back then, and all these things that could not have possibly happened. Yeah, I think it will eventually happen, because every year, awareness of the character grows. Every year, exposure on YouTube and on Facebook, and people discovering the show, and the live shows and everything, it gets bigger and better every year, so I think the character is going to be around for a while.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Good. I hope so. So, if people want to follow you, if they want to watch the show, learn more, where do we send them?
Matt Page:
Let’s see. Well, the easiest thing is to Google Enter the Dojo or Master Ken and that will sort of … Some stuff will pop up. There is an official channel, obviously. YouTube.com/EntertheDojoShow. There is the Facebook page, which is, I believe, it’s Facebook.com/MasterAmeriKen, K-E-N. We technically have a Twitter page, but I suck at Twitter. I'm not going to mention it, because I like Facebook because I can type really long updates. I post too much content. We keep saying we’re going to get the hang of Twitter. We've been saying that for three years, so we probably won’t, but those are the primary places, and then if anybody’s interested in … We also sell t-shirts, and DVDs, and stuff like that, and that's just at our regular website, EnterTheDojoShow.com.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Great, and we’ll have all of that stuff available on the show notes, whistlekickMartialArtsRadio.com, so people can go check that out, and we’ll make sure we get all that spread out. Any parting advice for everyone listening?
Matt Page:
Gosh. What kind of advice do people give on the show? Like what's…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Usually deep, and heartfelt, and poignant.
Matt Page:
Yeah, that's not happening.
Jeremy LesniakTake the complete opposite direction, if you're so inclined. What would Master Ken offer for advice?
Matt Page:
Aw, man. Ken would have something to say about making sure that you're super dangerous, and you only train for real and everything. I think my personal advice would be that what I have the most respect for are people who train to be martial artists, who train as a way of life. Not just as a fighter, but people who use martial arts for self-improvement. I think that there's a lot of focus today … I think that there are great athletes in MMA, and I think that all that stuff is great, but I think that the point of good martial arts training is still to develop you as a human being. Develop you intellectually, develop you emotionally, and I think if you're getting something out of that, then it’s okay that you're not the toughest kid on the block, as long as it improves you as a human being.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thanks for listening to episode 47 of whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, and thank you to Mr. Matt Page for his time. Head on over to whistlekickMartialArtsRadio.com for the show notes with links to everything we talked about today, including links to all the social media for Master Ken, links to where you can watch Enter the Dojo, and a few other places to check out. We’re also including my favorite Enter the Dojo clip titled 100 Ways to Attack the Groin.If you want to be a guest on the show, or you know someone that would be a great interview, please fill out the form on the website, and don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter so you can stay up on everything we do. If you like the show, please subscribe or download one of the apps so you never miss out in the future, and if we could trouble you to leave us a kind review wherever you download your podcast, we’d appreciate it. Remember, if we read your review on the air, just contact us and we’ll get you a free pack of whistlekick stuff. If you want to follow us on social media, we’re on Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and Instagram, all with the username whistlekick. Remember the great stuff we make at whistlekick, like our comfortable sweatpants, over at whistlekick.com. So, until next time. Train hard, smile and have a great day.