Episode 911 - Preserving Legacy and Evolving Your Art
In this episode, Andrew and Victor discuss how we can preserve teachings from the past, but also evolve our arts.
Preserving Legacy and Evolving Your Art - Episode 911
SUMMARY
Andrew and Victor explore the topic of preserving legacy and evolving martial arts. They discuss the challenges of teaching and practicing different martial arts styles and systems, and how to maintain the integrity of the art while allowing for evolution. They touch on the importance of lineage and tradition, as well as the need for adaptation and personalization. The conversation also delves into the role of forms in martial arts and the potential for modification and interpretation. The conversation explores the idea of evolving martial arts while preserving their legacy. The hosts discuss the importance of understanding the reasons behind traditional forms and techniques and the need to adapt them for different scenarios, such as tournaments or physical limitations. They emphasize the value of cross-training and learning from different instructors to broaden one's perspective and improve as a martial artist. The hosts also encourage students to think about what they want to do with their martial arts and continue asking themselves that question to ensure ongoing growth and evolution.
TAKEAWAYS
* Preserving legacy in martial arts involves maintaining the integrity of the art while allowing for evolution and adaptation.
* Lineage and tradition are important in martial arts, but they should not hinder the growth and development of the art.
* Teaching martial arts requires finding a balance between preserving what was taught by previous instructors and making necessary adjustments for the present and future.
* The concept of preserving legacy and evolving martial arts is a complex and ongoing conversation that requires open-mindedness and a willingness to learn and grow. Understanding the reasons behind traditional forms and techniques is important.
* Adapting techniques for different scenarios, such as tournaments or physical limitations, is acceptable.
* Cross-training and learning from different instructors can broaden one's perspective and improve as a martial artist.
* Continuously asking oneself what they want to do with their martial arts ensures ongoing growth and evolution.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Overview
02:47 Preserving Legacy and Evolving Martial Arts
07:33 The Role of Forms in Martial Arts
12:04 Modifying and Interpreting Forms
14:47 Teaching Martial Arts: Preserving and Adjusting
22:23 Understanding the Reasons Behind Traditional Forms and Techniques
23:44 Adapting Techniques for Different Scenarios
25:12 The Value of Cross-Training and Broadening Perspective
31:24 Continuously Asking Yourself What You Want to Do with Your Martial Arts
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Andrew Adams (00:04.071)
Welcome, you are watching or listening to Whistlekick martial arts radio and today I am joined by Victor. Hey Victor, how's it going?
Vic (00:14.288)
It's going good, hey Andrew?
Andrew Adams (00:16.647)
Awesome. We are here to chat about a pretty cool topic, but before we get into it, I just want to let all the watchers and listeners know that we at Whistlekick do so many things to connect, educate, and entertain traditional martial arts of the world. Obviously, this podcast is one of them, but we have more than this podcast. We do more than just sell products, which we do. We've got shirts and hoodies and sweatpants and...
all kinds of stuff for sale through our website, whistlekick .com. You can go there to find all sorts of stuff. You can also go there to find out information on our new school owners program called Whistlekick Alliance. We have events you can find there. We've got training programs. We've got books. We've got so much stuff there. And you can use the code podcast15 to save yourself 50 % on anything.
And this show has its own home. This show's home is whistlekickmarshallarchradio .com. You can find show notes for all the episodes. You can see extra pictures of the guests and some of the topics that we're talking about, as well as transcripts and everything you could possibly think of that you might want to reference about this episode. So we hope you go there and check it out. And if you have any questions or if you want to get in touch with me, you can do that at andrew at whistlekick.
But today, Victor, how are things? Life is good?
Vic (01:51.152)
Life is good. It was another good week at our school. Signed up. Well, we had buddy week, so I signed up one student and had some other leads that I will get to follow up on in the week to come and guaranteed a future student, which was cool. But basically the mother that we signed up said that she asked Karen and I to let her know.
Andrew Adams (02:11.143)
That's great.
Vic (02:18.608)
when we think her four -year -old will be ready to join our program and she'll sign her right up. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (02:23.303)
Oh, that's great. And you know, little note for school loans out there, Buddy Week, I know a number of schools that do it and it always turns out as a positive. So something to keep in mind. But we're not here to talk about Buddy Week, although I bet we could do a whole episode on Buddy Week.
Vic (02:41.68)
Yeah, we probably could. We would want to get Mark Warner in on that because he does one like all the time.
Andrew Adams (02:44.263)
Oh, for sure.
But we are here to discuss a topic that you brought up actually, the thought, the concept of preserving legacy and evolving your art.
Vic (03:02.32)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah. It's just, it's a topic of a conversation that has been on my mind recently. I've been having the conversation with a bunch of different people recently, just privately.
as I'm now in a place where not only am I teaching in my school, but I'm not teaching my own system. I'm teaching my instructor system, but I am teaching with my wife who has black belts in different styles and systems. So I'm keeping her a little bit ahead as far as the curriculum is concerned.
Vic (03:48.336)
But at the same time, I'm also cross -training in Baguazhang. And so I have this basis of this, really it is a complete karate and a complete jiu -jitsu system. But currently a lot of the stuff that I work with are not from those styles and systems and...
The people that I train with currently don't have my training and I know and I can feel and because I am, I am obsessive about this sometimes is I'm a big fan of recording myself as soon as like I'll learn a new form. I was just talking about this with, with some students this morning is as soon as I can get through a new form by my, like by myself without stopping. And I've done this since I was 16, a greenbelt.
Andrew Adams (04:31.687)
promise.
Andrew Adams (04:37.223)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (04:43.984)
I'll record myself, not because I think it's worth recording, but just for reference, but also I will then go back and rerecord myself doing the same form a year to two years later. It's hard to see your own progress because it's daily, but when you can look at yourself as a green belt and I still have some of those things and I hate them because all I can see is like my foot's out of place, my hands are in the wrong place, my belt is tied wrong.
Andrew Adams (04:59.207)
Absolutely.
Vic (05:13.264)
All of that stuff bothers me. But even now, you know, as I still do that practice, I'll watch something and I'll watch my karate form and I'm like, and I'll see, I was like, Ooh, my instructor won't like that. I'm in a Kung Fu stance or that's not a front stance. That's a left kneeling stance. That's this like, so it's made this a topic of conversation in my personal life because even Karen is doing.
my forms from Segi no Ru, but she's doing them like someone who has a Taekwondo, Shorin -Ru background, because that's what she has. Same movements, different things. And I realized that what are our students who are going to be some of the only true second generation students in this art that I have permission from my instructor to teach.
Andrew Adams (05:56.135)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Vic (06:13.104)
aren't going to look like the students who train directly under him. And so we have interesting conversations as we look at the curriculum is what to keep, what to adjust, maybe what to teach in a different order. And at what point does it stop being Segi Do Ru and start being something else.
Andrew Adams (06:26.823)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (06:34.695)
So, you know, it's interesting, you know, Mark Warner and I did an episode, episode 871 on is knowing lineage important, right? And this, you know, I think that is part of preserving the legacy of the art that you're, that you are teaching or doing, right? Preserving what, not only what you do, but who it was that did it. And, you know, I think most of us would agree that,
Vic (07:00.976)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (07:04.711)
you know, preserving what came before is important, but it does lead to this thought of, if we only preserve what was done before, can it evolve? And so I definitely see two sides where then you get people like, no, it has to evolve and it has to change, but does that mean you have to throw away what you learned before? Does it have to be completely different? And...
Vic (07:17.712)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (07:33.479)
And I think that's what we're kind of talking about here, right? And it's interesting, you're talking about Karen coming from her background in taekwondo, shoryu stuff, and now coming into this. And Jeremy talks about that a lot, that even when he did taekwondo, he does it as a karate person. And one of the people helping him out in his school teaching,
ASA Taekwondo person who is now teaching karate, but she's teaching it in a, like she does it in a Taekwondo way. So I get that. There's definitely, regardless of how you evolve it, quote unquote, you're going to be preserving some stuff because that's the way you learned, right? I think that's inherent natural.
Vic (08:17.264)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (08:21.072)
Yeah. Yeah, I think, and I've always, again, with my obsessive, I've always been a learner and I've always wanted to know why things are the way that they are. Not in like a bucking authority type of way, but I believe that tradition for tradition sake is bad. I also believe that change for change, change's sake is bad.
And so, you know, evolution is, it is just that when something evolves, it's not changing just because it feels like it, it changes because there's a necessity to it. There are, there's this one, there's this one choke that we have. It's a front choke. It's, you know, right, it's right across here. You grab the back of their shoulder, you go across, you grab the back of their shoulder.
Andrew Adams (09:06.343)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (09:20.72)
on the other side and you pull in and it was designed.
So the story behind how this technique was developed was my instructor's instructor was a police officer in Sunset Park, New York in like the sixties. And he was walking down the pier one day on his day off and there was a shirtless dude swinging around a samurai sword as one does. And he was off duty, so he didn't have a weapon on him. Not that he ever.
Andrew Adams (09:48.999)
Okay.
Vic (09:55.248)
He never carried a nightstick because he said, and I quote, if I cannot handle myself with these, then I deserve to get my head handed to me even on duty. So he never carried a nightstick. He carried a gun, only discharged it once and yelled at the kid who made him discharge the gun while he was arresting him. That's another story. Tough dude, tough dude, but.
Andrew Adams (10:16.198)
Okay.
Vic (10:23.472)
he ended up having to disarm this guy and have, and he choked him out against a wall, but he didn't have like a shirt. So it's basically what you would imagine that, that very traditional jujitsu lapel choke to be, but how do you do it on a dude wearing a tank top or no shirt at all? So my instructor took that technique and kept teaching it and kept teaching it, kept teaching it. So my instructor is a carpenter by trade. He has grown up cutting house siding.
with giant aviator shears by hand for years of his life. He has a vice -like grip. He can make that choke work. I cannot. Like, I can, but not as quickly, like not to the point where I would try to disarm someone with a samurai sword with it. However, my buddy of mine who was on the show before Anthony Whistler, him and I were talking about it,
Andrew Adams (10:57.287)
Yep. Yep.
Andrew Adams (11:02.791)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Sure.
Vic (11:22.192)
and working it and we're like, well, if we adjust it and do it and do the entrance just a little different, we could actually get it to work effectively and at speed as him.
Did we change the technique or did we just give an option for it to work for someone whose hands are vice -like grips anymore? There was discrepancy that no, you have to do it this way. But do we, I would argue and I did argue, I was like, I'm not gonna stop teaching it this way, the way my instructor does it. That's the way he teaches it.
Andrew Adams (11:45.191)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (12:00.679)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (12:04.656)
but I'm going to say it like that. My instructor teaches it this way, one, two. If you can do it that way, fine. That's great. You can do it his way. If you can't though, here's an option, one, two. You get the same result.
Andrew Adams (12:09.223)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (12:23.047)
Yep. And I, I think that's probably the most common way that people change stuff that their instructors teach. Um, and we do it even within a class, like literally within a class, the, the instructor will say, this is that, you know, here's the technique and you know, we will have a student in class that is too small to make that technique work on the taller.
Vic (12:34.16)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (12:52.743)
partner that they have or vice versa. The partner is really tall and they're trying to do the technique on someone that is a foot and a half shorter than them and it just doesn't work. Right. And so yes, the instructor taught it this way and they'll they'll try it and they'll for lack of a better word, make it work just so they understand the concept. And I am a big fan of that personally, even if the technique doesn't work for me, I want to learn the way.
Vic (12:54.256)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (13:03.088)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (13:21.479)
that my instructor is teaching it because I might have a student that I teach down the road that it's going to work for. But I am a fan of finding alternate ways to do the same technique and have it still work because you made this one slight variation because of height or because of weight or because of thickness or whatever. Someone's hands aren't big enough to grab.
Vic (13:30.512)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (13:50.279)
the arm or whatever, right? I think those things are important. And I think the other place that it comes up the most, I think, is forms.
Vic (14:02.768)
Mmm, yeah.
Andrew Adams (14:04.647)
So what are your thoughts on that?
Vic (14:07.152)
Well, what do you mean where it comes up, uh, mo -
Andrew Adams (14:08.839)
So like forms being like my instructor taught it this way and then it evolves and change. I mean, we know that historically they have changed like without a doubt, no matter how much you say this is the way my instructor taught me to do it. If you look at this person and go back two generations of instructors, there are going to be differences. I think most people would agree with that.
Vic (14:18.768)
Yes. Yes.
Andrew Adams (14:38.151)
And I think it just happens naturally whether it's meant to or not. But what about, what are your thoughts on changing it?
and permanently and saying, you know what, this is the way my instructor taught it, but we're going to change it for this reason, X, Y, Z.
Vic (14:56.688)
Yeah. So that's an interesting question because the form system in Segi -Do -Ru is odd. We are not a system of forms. We are a system of one steps. We have 36 one steps from white through Shodan. And that is how we move. When my instructor was trying to get his system certified, he was told by the board of Soke that
were wanting him to present his system that he needed whatever jiu -jitsu he had, an Ipan curriculum, and a forms curriculum. And he had never belonged to a school that did forms before. His instructor, again, the cop, had a couple black belt forms that he would teach in case students wanted to go compete. They either fought each other in the dojo,
Andrew Adams (15:40.967)
Mm -hmm. Okay.
Vic (15:54.864)
Or they did one steps. So, and then fought each other. So what my instructor did was he had an old Chuck Norris Tung Tzu Do manual, uh, hanging around and he was like, oh, well, these are the P 'nan kata that were just stolen from the Japanese system anyway. So I'll just steal them back and say that they're mine. So.
And Karen is a huge forms person. So as I'm teaching her the segi do versions of forms, which are some of them.
Vic (16:36.72)
the small differences are actually harder for her because...
Andrew Adams (16:40.775)
Oh, I can relate so, so well.
Vic (16:45.488)
Because she doesn't like why, but then I have to explain, well, because in this one step or how we move in our, our fighting philosophy has now influenced this form. And so there's little minor changes in all of the forms that we do. And then there's things like we have a version of Konkuk, which I know you've seen, and we used to do terrible.
The black belts who would perform kanku in tournaments used to do terrible doing kanku. And then one of them once, who doesn't train with us anymore, unfortunately, but he was awesome, said, I'm going to try something. And when he went up and announced his form, he said, and I'm performing segiro -ru kanku. And he just put our school's name in front of it. First place.
Andrew Adams (17:38.951)
Hmm. Yeah, interesting. Hmm.
Vic (17:44.464)
Because from the moment he said that, they were like, oh, well, this isn't concoo. This is their interpretation of it. All right. And one of the judges who was a master of another system came up to our instructor afterwards and was like, you know, that did not look like how we do concoo at all. But I saw the spirit, that's his words. I saw the spirit of concoo in it and I really liked it. And then he left. Like, so.
Andrew Adams (17:49.191)
Hmm.
Andrew Adams (18:07.303)
Hmm. Hmm.
interesting.
Vic (18:11.568)
So I think that forms being unique to your system, like...
Forms are useless if all they are are just something to do as a testing requirement. In my opinion, I'll put that on there so that people can at me and get angry at me if they disagree with that. I love forms. I think forms are fun. That's what I would do in tournaments. I don't like point sparring. I like forms. But if you can't, if your forms aren't informing how you move in combat,
then the purpose that I believe that, at least in our system that they serve, is moot, right? When I was in college, a very conservative Christian university, where I got asked the question, how do you justify being so violent by doing martial arts? I didn't have anybody to work out with for those three and a half, four years. What did I do? Forms. I did a lot of forms.
Andrew Adams (19:16.455)
Yeah, yeah. Sure. Yeah, of course.
Vic (19:20.016)
My forms being adjusted to the type of footwork that we use in sparring, the type of footwork that we use in our one steps was so beneficial because then when I got back to being able to work with a partner, it wasn't like I had missed a beat. If I had been practicing the traditional forms,
Andrew Adams (19:40.935)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Vic (19:46.032)
the way that they appeared exactly in the Chuck Norris manual because it's tradition, I might have had some bad habits that needed to be cleaned up and that would have cost me getting a foot to the face.
Andrew Adams (19:51.431)
Yep. Yep.
Andrew Adams (20:00.281)
Gotcha. Well, but I would say that that also, I mean, if you were, if you were not doing Seiguro -ru, if you were doing Tang Shudo, which is to Chuck Norris' system, you, and you worked from the book, you would be doing what you quote unquote supposed to in regards to those forms, right? You would be preserving them. You know, you don't come from that system, right? You come from Seiguro -ru, which is different.
Vic (20:11.056)
Right.
Andrew Adams (20:28.647)
So your instructor modified them for whatever reason they wanted. But then the question is, so I think getting back to the root of my question, what if one of your students right now that you have right now continues with you, gets their black belt, continues on, opens their school and teaches the forms that you're teaching right now, but changes them? That's the question. It's not like the tanks, you know, versions of the book from the book.
Vic (20:49.808)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (20:54.48)
Got you, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (20:57.319)
That's different because your instructor consciously chose them for whatever reason to change.
Vic (21:02.8)
So I think, again, what's your reason for it? So Segi -Do has one form, one true form. It's called Shunoteni -Ote and it's a third degree black belt form. And it was put together by the high ranking black belts and the founder of the system over a course of like six weeks, something like that. When I started Segi -Do -Ru, it was still pretty much in flux. It's become more and more solidified as time goes on.
Shino Teneyote has changed three times since its inception because my instructor has gone over it. And I've been a part of the most, one of the most recent changes. And I've said, wow, um, yeah, all of the, I was like all of the knife hands for, for instance, all the knife hands that we throw in that form come vertical here, but sometimes I'll throw a knife hand.
horizontally because I'm trying to hit the throat. So we were having that discussion. He's like, Vic, you're right. Let's take these two knife hands in the series of all knife hands that you're throwing throughout this whole form and we'll make these two horizontal so that in the course of the form, you're practicing angled, straight on and horizontal. So the form represent is representative of all change for a reason. Karen, excuse me, I'm allergic.
Andrew Adams (22:23.495)
Yeah.
Vic (22:28.944)
to Kansas, so my voice is hard, is having a hard time right now. Karen came up to me and she's like, you know, if our students do segado forms in traditional forms in this area, they will lose. And I'm like, well, how so? Because her school was in this area. I wanted to know. She's like, you come back on the ball, you come, the back foot, you come up on the ball of your foot for every reverse punch. I'm like, right.
Andrew Adams (22:31.911)
Hahaha.
Vic (22:58.48)
Because boxing, you turn into it, it's good. Yeah. And like, but I'm saying like me, I had no idea. Like I was like, yeah, that makes sense. Why wouldn't she goes, every traditional school in this area that competes in competitions that she's been a part of, she's like, if you come up at any time, if your heel comes off the ground, points deducted, they don't care that that's the way you do it. So then she came to me, she's like, if we were going to a tournament,
Andrew Adams (22:59.847)
Yeah, yeah. It's just different ways of doing things. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (23:24.231)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Vic (23:28.176)
Are you okay if we tell the students, this is how the form is in the style, but if you're doing it for this scenario, do it this way. And it really had me to think about it. I was like, wow, yeah, I never thought about that.
Andrew Adams (23:39.239)
So, yeah.
Andrew Adams (23:44.039)
And you segued perfectly into what I was going to talk about, which is having a way that you do it for your school, whether it's for testing or for rank requirements, whatever, like demonstrations, we do it this way, but having an alternate way for whatever reason. And tournaments was going to be one of them that for better or for worse, people look for certain things often.
depending on the tournament that you're going to and you may want to change some things for it and I do this as well when I do a tournament in my when I do a form in my school I do it this way but when I go to a tournament I change things slightly the timing of things I'll add an extra key I if the you know if the form only has like one key I trip you know usually in our school I might put an extra one in just so that
you know, just cuz. And then the other way that forms get changed occasionally in our school specifically is there are a couple of forms I can think of that my instructor has a hard time doing the technique because he has bad knees. When he was in his 20s, no problem. Jumping double front kick, no prob - he had no problem in his 20s. Well, he's now had issues with his knees, so he doesn't do a jumping double front kick. He will do
Vic (24:57.584)
Hmm.
Andrew Adams (25:12.231)
a front kick from not jumping, put it down and do a front kick with the other leg. So he's still doing two front kicks, but he's just not jumping into the air, right? That's a change that he's modified, but he's made it clear to every student that he teaches, this is what it is supposed to be. It is supposed to be a jump and you do two front kicks. I can't do it because my knees can't handle that, but this is what it should be. If you do it without jumping,
that is an acceptable modification. If you would like to do that, that's fine. He won't be upset if somebody doesn't do it that way. There's another one in Shodokan, there's a kata called...
empty. And the very first move, you drop down on one knee and you punch straight down. In our school, that form is called wansu. And the first move, and my instructor says the first move, you step out to the left, you drop down onto your right knee. So your weight is on your right knee and your left foot. And that's supposed to be the first move. He's like, I have bad knees. I can't do that. If I go down on my knee, I'm not going to get back up.
Vic (25:55.568)
Okay.
Andrew Adams (26:24.199)
So he lets us know that is a modification. Another one that's seen a lot in schools is you'll do a, one hand will do a sweeping block with, so your palm is straight up. I'm describing it for those that are just listening. And then you'll have to do a crescent kick into your hand. Well, some people, if they're older, can't get their leg up that high. They can't do a crescent kick.
Vic (26:29.872)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (26:43.985)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (26:53.607)
Does that mean we should penalize them because they're not doing the form correctly? So, you know, those sorts of changes, I think, are totally fine. But in terms of forms, I like trying to pass on the way it was taught to you. And if you make modifications, as long as you understand what those modifications are and why, I think that's okay.
Vic (27:19.248)
I would agree with that too. And this perspective that I have, I owe a lot to my Bagua instructor, Sifu Martin, in the sense of, I think if you are a martial artist, you should be this way. But especially if you are going to teach, you need to be a scholar of not just your art, but of the martial arts in general. And I don't just mean,
like a scholar in the combat aspect of things. You need to know what this is called, how it was developed, where it came from, the geography of where it was come from, because a lot of times there's reasons, there's reasons behind things. I mean, I, and, uh,
So, so for, for, for example, using Seiguro Ruu because I've lived and seen this, right? We, when I started, we were in a church building with a concrete floor and a quarter inch thick carpet. We were karate and jiu -jitsu though. Not a lot of throwing on concrete. However, we had old wrestling mats that once a month we'd roll them out.
Andrew Adams (28:30.055)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (28:35.783)
Yep, sure.
Vic (28:42.896)
And that would be the night that we would throw and we would have people who would come in, look through the window, see if we had mats and say, ah, I don't want to do that and leave. So the first thing that my instructor did when we got our own place being a carpenter was he built mats into the floor, permanent mats. Well, here's the thing. As we went from that, I spent like maybe the first two years in that church and then the rest of my training in this other place with the permanent mats.
Andrew Adams (28:51.815)
Hmm.
Andrew Adams (29:00.807)
Sure. Yep. Yep.
Vic (29:13.168)
All of a sudden, all of our karate footwork became a lot more Jiu -Jitsu -esque because every even karate technique was setting up some sort of Jiu -Jitsu flow and they started to mesh together. Well, someone who didn't know the history or wasn't there to live through that part of the system blamed us of being Kung Fu and having Kung Fu influences because of how we moved.
Andrew Adams (29:24.743)
Interesting, yeah.
Vic (29:38.576)
But then when I explained it, they'd be like, no, we just were always used to having a nice spongy floor to throw people on. And once we had it, those of us who weren't used to always having it wanted to take advantage of it as much as possible. And so now everything ended with a throw, everything ended with a pin, right? We have Sanxin's stance, right? Which comes from Okinawa, where you were on river boats a lot. Well...
I used to sit in the back of a truck when I worked maintenance for a camp and it didn't have any things to hold onto, but sometimes I would have to stand while it drove around the campsite. And I discovered when you're in the truck beds, that's moving and it's uneven. San -Chen is actually a really good stance to stable yourself in and to move in. And I was like, well, this makes sense, right? Karen.
Andrew Adams (30:30.951)
Yeah, yeah, very grounded.
Vic (30:37.424)
one of the first weapons that she learned was ore because it was in Okinawan school, right? And like today that doesn't make sense, but when you think about, well, if your main way of traveling from place to place is down a river and you might get attacked, yeah, I might want to know how to defend myself within ore because I'm holding it.
Andrew Adams (30:41.191)
Eco bow. Yep.
Andrew Adams (31:00.775)
Yeah, and I think that's some of the preserving legacy that we're talking about, preserving your art and how you do things. Now, evolving, you know, the episode title, Preserving Legacy and Evolving Your Art, let's talk about the evolve part, right? Because evolve means change, right? For the sake of change, not necessarily for the sake of change, but, you know, Gishin Funakoshi said,
Vic (31:13.104)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (31:19.248)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (31:24.583)
You know all things change and you know with the times karate must change to or something I'm paraphrasing something to that effect. I don't remember the exact quote and you know, Jeremy and I have had discussions on the show about how if I If I take what my teacher taught me and I only learn and I only do exactly that I'm never gonna be able to remember and teach every single thing that he taught me It's gonna be a little bit less and then my students
Vic (31:31.664)
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (31:52.839)
are never gonna get everything that I have to give them. It's gonna be a little bit less. And over time, if that continues, the martial arts go down, right? And so in order for it to continue to go up, our students, my students have to be better than I am. And their students have to be better than they are, right? That's how things evolve. And so...
Vic (32:12.24)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (32:20.103)
I don't want to go too much longer with this, but I think it's important to discuss the evolution part of making your art grow and having your students get better. And how do we as martial artists, how can we help that happen for our students?
Vic (32:38.224)
Yeah, I think it is an interesting thing when you look at it. And I know, and I didn't know this up until very recently when I became more involved with Whistlekick and started cross -training with my Sifu. Up until then, the only curriculum that I had ever seen was my instructors. So.
Andrew Adams (33:04.583)
Sure.
Vic (33:06.224)
I didn't realize how close to the purity, quote unquote, of a system I was. And even I said, I think I said at the top of this episode, every student with a, the exception of a handful of students who exist now, and some of my former students when I ran a program in Florida have been first generation. I mean, have not only learned from the same instructor, but have learned from the founder of the system.
Andrew Adams (33:36.327)
Yeah, yeah, and most people don't have that.
Vic (33:39.152)
But however, right now there are black belts training weekly under my instructor and I am not. I would argue that if he is looking for someone to inherit his school and to continue teaching segiro -ru as he leaves it finished, those are his candidates. Because as I am away, my students are gonna fight like me. And...
Andrew Adams (34:02.215)
Sure, sure.
Andrew Adams (34:07.238)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (34:08.336)
even with some of the basics that I've been learning with the kung fu, I'm like, I really like that drill. We're going to take it, we're going to karate -ize it, and we're going to use it with my white belts. So my students don't know, they're learning the foundational basics of jujitsu, karate, and kung fu, because I'm stealing the things that I like and doing it there. And so like I've had this conversation where maybe...
Andrew Adams (34:28.871)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Vic (34:38.16)
the student of mine who gets his third degree black belt and decides that he wants to move on and move away and open a new school away from me. He's not Segiro Ruu. He could be teaching Segiro Karate or Segiro Jujitsu because it leads back to the style, but it's not the Ruu. It's not the original root household. And I even have argued that...
Andrew Adams (34:55.303)
Mm. Sure, sure.
Vic (35:07.728)
my school because of the influence of my wife, because of the influence of my Sifu, and my whole journey in the Bagua sphere, which is completely out of my comfort zone, which is one of the reasons why I chose it.
maybe not the current iteration of it, but four years from now, 10 years from now, Wolf Martial Arts may only be considered, they are a cousin school of this. And there's nothing wrong with that because everybody fights differently, everybody moves differently. And if martial arts, I heard Jeremy say once that martial arts is a physical expression. That's why it's art, right?
Andrew Adams (35:40.935)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (35:47.079)
Yep. Yep.
Andrew Adams (35:55.751)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (35:56.048)
It's a physical expression.
I can't tell you how many times that I will finish doing a form and my Bagua instructor, because we do it virtually, is just staring at me. And I'm so self -conscious. I feel like I did things wrong. But then he goes, no, no, you did it right. It just looks weird to me because your body's not mine.
Andrew Adams (36:11.175)
Thank you.
Andrew Adams (36:20.679)
Sure, yep, yeah. I totally get that, I totally get that. And I think the, for me, speaking for myself, I think the evolution, the evolving your art comes from not learning from one single person for your entire life. And that's gonna be controversial for some people. That they're gonna hear that and go, oh, you're talking about disloyalty. No, I'm not talking about disloyalty.
Vic (36:40.048)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (36:50.279)
There are, in fact, I'm not sure when this episode I'm gonna reference is coming out, but it either just came out or it's coming out soon. We had a guest on the show that talked specifically about train with your instructor, and this particular person trained with one person for 30 plus years. But it was also totally fine for him to go off and study with someone else for a bit.
and come back, like this is your home, right? This can still be your home, but you can go off and learn other things. It's like, as you're growing up as a child, you go to school, regular school, public school, private school, whatever, but you eventually graduate from middle school and you go to a high school. But you always come home, right? Your home is where your parents are. So you go off to these other places and learn other things.
Vic (37:20.368)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (37:42.256)
Right. Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (37:47.047)
but you always come home. And I think that is a great philosophy that needs to be embraced more, that going off and learning other things doesn't mean that you're leaving your school. You're just learning new things. And I think that is how we can evolve our art. And then we can, as long as we're understanding what we're bringing back,
Vic (37:47.056)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (38:10.256)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (38:16.487)
recognizing what we're still doing, that's where the preserving comes into play.
Vic (38:20.848)
Yeah. Well, and I know Anthony Whistler mentioned this on the episode that he recorded with Jeremy is the thing when he also started cross training in Bagua under a different instructor and when they would spar, he was having a hard time keeping up with people who were lower ranks than him. And he's not a bad fighter. It's just that, wow, I've never had to fight someone who moves like this. That's Bagua's like.
That's why it's so effective is because they purposefully try to move in weird ways. And I think Capoeira would kind of tout the same thing is that they move in weird and unexpected ways. But if you never take your art and see, well, cross training doesn't mean that I take off my belt and I become a white belt and I start all over again from scratch. It could. For some people it does. There's nothing wrong with that.
Andrew Adams (39:18.951)
Mm -hmm. Sure.
Vic (39:21.392)
But to never get together with someone like we do on free training days or Marshall Summit and say, hey, I want you to fight me with what you have because I want to see what I already have that I can use to respond to that. In fact, well, I know that this conversation will happen by the time this episode comes out, so it's okay for me to talk about it. We have a once a month black belt meeting my instructor has. Anthony Whistler is still.
Andrew Adams (39:33.159)
Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.
Vic (39:50.8)
close enough where he can go to it. Him and I have been talking about some things in order to keep Sekiro Ruu from dying or from degrading over time and encouraging it to continue each, every, every generation of students to be better. And so one of the things that we were going to pitch is that Brown Belt's getting ready to test for Shodan should spend one month virtually training with me and one month virtually training with him.
And if there is another black belt, Shihan Danny Senado, who just reopened his school in Connecticut, which I'm excited for, if he's willing, one month training with them. This way, as they're getting ready to turn that corner of Shodan, they get the perspective of Segito Roo from three Segito black belts who are not only on the other side of that, but who have been distant for a little bit. And then we're going to pitch the hard pill to swallow.
Andrew Adams (40:36.967)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (40:47.015)
Yep. Yep.
Vic (40:51.44)
We're going to pitch to our instructor that when those same students are getting ready to test for Sandan in our system, a full sensei, someone who can then is allowed to be instructor certified to teach and operate a school, that they spend one month cross training in a different art.
Andrew Adams (41:11.495)
I think there are, yeah, I think that's cool. And I think that would help to evolve their martial arts, right? And there are schools that do that. I don't think there are a lot, but there are definitely schools that do that. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. What did we miss? What did we leave off the table? What did we not talk about?
Vic (41:12.656)
to round themselves out.
Vic (41:28.592)
It's so smart. It's...
Vic (41:39.568)
I don't know if we've left anything off the table. I think the only thing that I would end with that I would want to say is it's something that I said at the last Segyiro Ruu black belt test that I was at. It was a question that I like to ask all black belts that I get a chance to. And I think if you as a, if anyone as a martial artist continue to ask themselves this question, their art will continue to evolve in a good way is.
I asked the black belts, I want you to now go home and think about once they got their, their showdown, their first degree, what do you want to do with your martial arts? Because at that point, these techniques are, should not be, should not be the instructor telling you put here, your hand there and, and put your foot here there. It's now yours. What do you want to do with it? And as long as we keep asking ourselves that question,
Andrew Adams (42:36.103)
Mm -hmm.
Vic (42:40.528)
we will evolve and get better. If you stop asking that question and just focus on, well, this belongs to this person in the past, so I can't do anything, then your martial arts becomes a museum piece.
Andrew Adams (42:56.167)
great way to leave it. Guys, people listening, what did we miss out? Is there something about this that we're not thinking of? Let us know. You can go on our Facebook page, which is martial arts radio, where you'll post about it. You can see it on Instagram. You can comment there. You can find us on YouTube. What did we miss? Did we forget anything? Let us know. You can contact me, andrewatwhistelkick .com.
Victor, how can people get in touch with you?
Vic (43:27.408)
Wolf martial arts Joko or wolf martial arts on Facebook is how they can contact me or victor .whistlekick at gmail .com also will get in touch with me.
Andrew Adams (43:39.047)
There you go. So any controversial stuff you want to yell at him about, you can do that. Don't yell at me for stuff he said. And, you know, check out the website, whistlekick .com. Anything you're going to purchase. Don't forget the code podcast one five. Save yourself 15 % off just about everything there. And I think that just about does it. So until next time, train hard.
Vic (43:44.272)
Do it.
Vic (44:03.376)
Smile.
Andrew Adams (44:04.775)
and have a great day.